Ep. 134: The DB Cooper Vortex

And I just turned around and I call ass out of there. I was done. I wasn't deal with them. The hypocrisy of the cult is one of the things that turned me. Away the quickest. When I turned my head lights on, it turned and looked at us. And one of the things I remember the most where the eyes were going red. I see an orb of light. It is just circling these steps like it is waiting for me. And he begins to tell them that he saw UFO. They're basically like, what are you talking about. That's seven foot up on a tree, peeking around it, and that's where I saw the top of the muzzle, noose and the eyes. As soon as I made eye contact with this thing, it don't like death. Welcome back to Tenfoil Tells. I'm your host, Brandon Wright. Tonight we're going to be joined by my guest, Darren. Darren is the host of The Cooper Vortex, a podcast that he does that dives into all of the information about dB Cooper, or the lack thereof for information and everything that happened with the incident back in nineteen seventy one. You're not familiar with the dB Cooper story, then we will definitely be diving into that here, but before we bring Darren on, If you've ever had an experience and you would like to be on an episode of Tenfoil Tells, there's a couple things you can do. You can either send an email to Tenfoil Tales podcast at gmail dot com or you can go to tenfoiltals dot com and go to the contact section. Either way it works for me, so just make sure to send a message and we will get something scheduled for a future episode. If you would like to help the podcast out, please continue to share it around. Word of mouth is the best way of helping the podcast crow. You can also leave a five star rating and review wherever you listen to podcast ad. Just make sure to click on the little star link on Apple you can write a review on there, or you can you're on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcast ads. Just click on that five star rating and it does help out the podcast. You can also help out by joining the Patreon. There is a free membership and a paid membership. The paid membership is only a dollar ninety nine a month. With the membership, you get early access to all of the episodes that I record, so up to two months early, they're all ad free. You also get access to Crinical Conspiracies and some of the other exclusive content only on the Patreon. For more information about that, please check the show notes and make sure to follow me around on all of the social media's. But I think now we're going to go ahead and bring Darren on and dive on into this dB Cooper investigation. It's been fifty three years, still no real leads, no conclusive evidence, So I'm definitely looking forward to talking with him. He's done a lot of research into this and I hope you guys enjoy the conversation. So seit back, relax and enjoy the show. Like think this time to welcome my guest night Darren. Thanks for coming on here and talking with me. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Would you like to let the audience know a little bit about yourself. Yeah, my name is Darren Schaffer. I'm the host of the Cooper Vortex podcast. I grew up in Woodland, Washington, which would have been the closest city to where dB Cooper's proposed drop zone was. It sort of was first exposed to that story watching Unsolved Mysteries as a child and just being excited that here's this local story and I know all the all the cities involved that they listed off. It was exciting and I was just sort of I thought dB Cooper was a cool thing. It was a very local story, not much interest in it. And then a bunch of different things in my life happened all at the same time that it sent me into the coup vortex, as they call it. And my wife bought me this book, Skyjack by Jeffrey Gray, and it sort of just sat on my bookshelf for a while, and I was traveling and brought it with me and I started to read this book, and I was like, man, I thought I knew about the DV. Cooper story, but there's just so much more to this that I don't know. And I got through that book and I just I was baffled by all the things that I didn't know in the case, and I was just amazed that we don't know who he is. And that book alluded to another book, Into the Blast by Robert Blevins, and Skyjack was a few years old when I picked it up, so I was like, well, that book has got to be out now, So I picked up Into The Blast by Robert Blevins, and after I read those two books, I was really confident that DV. Cooper was Kenny Christensen. And then I unfortunately decided to go onto this website that they were referencing in these books, the drop Zone, And once I got on there, I started reading and I was like, Wow, dB Cooper is not Kenny Christiansen, and there's so much more to this. And they were talking about this other book, D B. Cooper and the FBI by Bruce Smith, So I ordered that book and read that one, and I realized how much more there was to this. Even still, there was so much more to learn and so much farther to go into this. And now I'm at this point where I thought I thought it was the one guy who I was introduced to, Kenny Christiansen, And now I don't think Kenny Christiansen is dB Cooper. So where do I go from here? I'm totally obsessed with the case. At this point, I had just started this job where I work completely alone, so I listened to forty to sixty hours a week of talk radio and podcasts, and I'm hungry for G. B. Cooper content. So I punch into Apple podcasts. This is like twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen. I punched dB Cooper into Apple podcasts, and there was fifteen or twenty shows that had done one episode on dB Cooper. And I was like, hell, yeah, I'm gonna burn through all these I'm gonna listen to all This is gonna be fun. And I quickly discovered they were all exactly the same. It was two or three hosts. They basically read the Wikipedia page for the dB Cooper case. They would list a handful of suspects, give a very brief overview on them, and then at the end they would decide which suspect they liked the most, and the case was solved. But I was so deep into this the dB Cooper case by then that I was just so unsatisfied with that it got to the point where to burn through all those podcasts. I just started fast forwarding over their description of the hijacking because I felt like I knew it so much better than they did that I didn't care what they said about the hijacking. I would just tune in for their thoughts and theories on suspects and maybe who they thought it was. And so I was like, I need I want to hear long form interviews with the authors of these books. I want to know why they think it's the suspect and how they got to that conclusion and why they're even involved in the dB Cooper case at all. And so I just decided, all right, I'm going to create the show that I want to listen to. And so I reached out to a bunch of people like, hey, will you be on my show that doesn't exist yet, and all of them said, yes, absolutely, I would love to be involved in that project. So I called up my friend Russell Colbert and we started this podcast, The Cooper Vortex. Originally the plan was to do about twenty episodes, maybe do it for six months to a year as just kind of a fun side project, and that I'd be done because how much dB Cooper talk is there even? Really? And they called the Vortex because once you get sucked in, you can't escape, And that's absolutely true because six years later, I'm still doing the exact same show. Do you still have a co host with you? Russell is actually not my co host. He edits and produces the show. Okay, I'm hoping to one day get him on. He says, once I hit one hundred episodes, he'll do it. So I'm trying to meet that goal. But I guess but before before we get into anything else, I should probably start with who dbe? Cooper was, Yeah, for anyone that's not familiar, that'd probably be the best way to go about it. So November twenty fourth, nineteen seventy one, a man in a dark brown business suit in a black overcoat or trench coat walks into the Portland International Airport. He purchases a one way ticket to Seattle. The cost of that ticket with tax is twenty dollars. He pays in cash. The only identification you needed in nineteen seventy one to board a plane. The gate agent asked him his name. He gave his name as Cooper, Dan Cooper, and then the gate agent writes Dan Cooper on his ticket, that's the only identification you needed to board a plane in nineteen seventy one. He's wanted the last to board the plane. He boards via the aft stairs of the seven twenty seven. He sits in the back of the plane shortly before or I'm sorry. Shortly after takeoff. At two point fifty he hands a stewardess a note. She u, this is one of my favorite parts. She automatically assumes it just a creepy businessman trying to hit on her, so she puts the note in her purse without looking at it. Cooper notices this and gets her attention again and says, excuse me, miss, you might want to have a look at that note. I have a bomb. She sits next to him cracks open his briefcase. Inside his briefcase are nine red sticks, some wires, and a large lantern style battery. Your stereotypical briefcase bomb. He's now hijacking the plane. He wants two hundred thousand dollars and two sets of parachutes, two manes and two reserves, or two backs and two fronts to be ready by the time they land in Seattle. Once his demands are met, he will let the passengers off the plane. The airline agrees to his demands. The pilots inform the passengers that there is some mechanical issue on the aircraft and the flight is going to circle the airport and settle burn some fuel. None of the packengers aboard the plane knew the plane was being hijacked. Until they got off the plane in Seattle. The plane lands in Seattle, Cooper's parachutes and money are brought on board. He releases the passengers, and now he's got some new plans. He wants to be flown to Mexico City. But more important than where to fly, he instructs the pilots how to fly the plane. He wants the plane to fly no higher than ten thousand feet. He wants the plane to fly no faster than two hundred miles an hour. He wants the landing gear to remain deployed, the cabin to remain unpressurized. He wants the flaps set at fifteen degrees, and most importantly, he wants the plane to take off with the aft stairs. And if you aren't familiar what aft stairs are, early in commercial aviation, you had a handful of planes with an aft staircase, meaning a staircase that would come off the ass end of the plane, so that if that smaller airport didn't have a ramp truck or didn't have a gate, that the plane could pull right up to the passengers could board and exit the aircraft via those aft stairs. So, with those demands, the pilots are not even sure that the aircraft can fly with the aft stairs down nevertheless take off. So they call into air traffic Control and ask air Traffic Control they're probably flipping through manuals in different schematics of this aircraft and they have no idea. So they reach out to Boeing and call Boeing, Hey, can a seven twenty seven fly with the aft stairs down? And Boeing says, yes, We've tested that that plane can fly with the aft stairs down. Now, the pilots still disagree with the idea of taking off with the stairs down. They told Cooper was unsafe to do that with a plane full of fuel. Interestingly, Cooper disagrees with their assessment, but says, you know what, forget it will take off with the stairs up. I'll lower the stairs in the air the plane takes or before the plane takes off, the pilot's like, well, in this configuration you've asked for, we don't have enough fuel to make it to Mexico City. So they discuss a couple of refueling stops. They agree on a refueling stop in Reno, Nevada. The plane takes off from Seattle around seven forty five pm for Reno, Nevada. Cooper asks for one stewardess to remain on board to be a go between between him and the flight crew and the cockpit. And the last thing, Tina Mucklow, the lone stewardess aboard the aircraft, saw it was dB Cooper putting on his parachute, and he asked her to go into the cockpit. She was also scared of like being sucked out of the plane when the aft stairs were deployed, so he instructs her to go to the cockpit. The last thing she sees, like I said, is him putting his parachute on, and she commented it had looked like he had done that many times before. The plane lands in Reno, the aft stairs are down and Cooper is not on board. He took his briefcase bomb with him. He asked for his notes back, and the only thing he left on the plane was a black clip on tie. He has not been seen or heard from since now. Back then, how much was two hundred, he says, two hundred thousand, and he was asking. For He asked for and got two hundred thousand dollars, which would be about one point three million dollars today. Another interesting thing about that money is Sea First Bank in Seattle had two hundred and fifty thousand dollars stashed away for just such an emergency, whether it be a ransom or a hostage situation, or even if that bank was robbed. They had two hundred and fifty thousand dollars set aside where they knew and had recorded all of those serial numbers. So the bills he got were not marked. They weren't bad in any way. It was legal tender us currency, but they knew the serial numbers of all of those bills. He had to have known a bit about flying, too, just because of the demands he had for the altitude, than the winning the stairs, basically hanging out and everything else. To me, it seems like for just some random person, he has a lot of information about how to go about things that the average person shouldn't know. Forget about the average person, Brandon, he knew more about that plane than the pilots did. He knew that that plane had capabilities that the pilots didn't know that plane could do. And it's an interesting set of knowledge because he actually had to have that. Stewart is Tina Mucklow show him how to lower those aft stairs. So why is it that you have a guy who seemingly knew the exact flight configuration for the plane to be jumped from that it could be jumped, but he didn't know himself how to lower that aft staircase. Mm hm. The other thing I was thinking if he was most people don't ever. I don't know how they do it back then, but like jumping out of an airplane with parachutes and everything else, like you would have to have some sort of experience. I would think, like if he's just risking it all on his first try, Like I don't know if I could get up there and just jump out of an airplane. So he's either had some sort of experience with that or he just didn't care. I totally agree with you. I've brought this up before. I'll give a wild example, like, you know, how much experience do you have driving F one cars? I assume it's none. No, So would you brandon plan a crime where your only escape is in an F one car? No, you wouldn't because you don't even know how to drive that. So would you plan a crime where your only escape is a nighttime parachute jump into unknown terrain if you've never. Parachuted, especially never parachuting or even really knowing where you're. At exactly, and who does that? Who would be willing to do a night jump into unknown terrain? Yeah, to me, the whole the whole thing I've always thought was very strange. That's why I wanted to talk with you because even as a kid, I was fascinated by it because I remember, I think probably the same Unsolved Mysteries episodes or whatever. I remember like they were always who is dB Cooper? And I've watched shows that they tried to figure out who dB Cooper is, and there is a lot of weird theories that are tossed around there and everything else. And for me, it's like, I don't know if it'll ever be one hundred percent, like unless someone come out and could prove that they were dB Cooper. But at this point I don't see that happening. But it's like one of those mysteries and I don't want to say it's like one of the greatest crime mysteries or whatever, but it kind of is in the sense that like no one knows what happened to the guy who he is, what it was about like the whole thing to me just is almost like the perfect crime. It's weird as that sounds. Well, it definitely seems that way. We're going on fifty three years will be uh a Cooper con This year will be the fifty three year anniversary of this happening, So it pretty much seems like he got away with it at this point in time, and even a satisfactory could this case be solved. One of the one of the things about this case that's so wild is we have a confession. We have a deathbed confession. And not only do we have one deathbed confession, we have thirty six of them, and we have hundreds more other confessions. So if you would compared this to like the Zodiac or something unsolved like that, this is a weird one in that we do have so many very serious confessions. Duyne Weber made a deathbed confession to his wife. Kenny Christiansen made sort of a half confession to his brother Walter RecA Is. You can listen to his taped confession to his friend Carl Lauren that he didn't want released until after he died. Wolfgang Gossip confessed to both of his sons on their eighteenth birthday, and two different lawyers in two different states. I spoke to one of the lead agents on the case in the two thousands, Larry Carr. He was on My show, and one of the things I thought was so wild about talking to him was he told me when he was a lead case agent, this is thirty five years after the skyjacking. During his tenure, a handful of people went into FBI offices to confess to this crime. Now, dB Cooper didn't hurt anyone. Physically threatening people with the bomb is not a really nice thing to do, but no one was physically harmed. And you have him in the back of the plane in sunglasses, drinking the bourbon and soda, with a hot young stewardess sliding the cigarettes. It's a very James Bond thing. And confessing to this is cool. If me and you were at a bar Brandon and I was like, hey, man, you know that dB Cooper thing that happened a few years ago, that was me. Man, I'm so cool. Can you believe it? I get that confession one thousand percent. I don't understand you going into an FBI office to confess to a crime. You know you did not commit that part. I don't get even the deathbed confessions. I struggle to understand it. I mean, maybe you lived this life where you didn't think you had a great story, or you weren't successful, or you didn't accomplish what you wanted to get done, so you want your name to be attached with something cool. I guess I don't know, but I've talked to many, many people whose father or grandfather or uncle confess to this crime or husband, and those people spend the rest of their lives trying to prove the confession of their loved one. Which is why one hundred percent I'm going to tell my kids some real wild shit on my deathbed, just so I know what they're going to be up to the rest of their life. That's a that's an idea for me to pull off. Now, if someone were to confess and it's been so long ago, can they still be charged for it as it passed the I forget what the term is, but I thought there were so many years before they could actually charge someone for the crime. If it's already been so many years past. Great question. So there's a couple different charges involved. You have, you know, pretty much like extortion and kidnapping and a bunch of different charges. They ended up charging John Doe with air piracy in lieu of a name, so to sort of get around the statute of limitations, which we could argue on whether or not there would be a statute of limitations on this. But about seven years after the hijacking, the FBI charged John Doe with air piracy of flight three h five, so that if they ever did figure it out, he's already been charged. Which I've tried to look that up and see how common that is, and it's a pretty rare thing to do, and so you have that. But I've also had a couple of different lawyers on the show, and dB Cooper smoked seven cigarettes on that plane. I said the only thing he left behind was a black clip on tie, but that was a lie. It was two things, a black clip on tie and seven cigarette butts. And so the FBI collected those seven cigarette butts out of the ash tray and then they sent them into the forensic lab. And the FBI files on the Cooper case are out now and you can read them. There's like hundreds of thousands of files. So if you really want to read them. They're all there for you. But lucky for me, I know a bunch of people who are sifting through them, and you can read the FBI file on the cigarette butts. They sent them into a lab and the messages, hey, these are dB Cooper's cigarette butts. Examine them and see if you can get any fingerprints on them, and if you can't, then just throw them away. So those cigarette butts, which we could potentially pull DNA from today, were destroyed. They also found a hair on the seat that he was sitting in that they believe could be from him. Now, it is an airplane and a bunch of people went through there, so you can't be one hundred percent, but they thought it could be dB Cooper's hair. So they had this hair on a slide. And so you would think, now I can look back at the FBI files and see how they handled this, And you would think that, Hey, I'm calling into the Seattle Field Office and I'm like, hey, I'm investigating this dB Cooper suspect, and I know you have a slide of hair. I got some hair off my suspect. Do you want to compare it? You would think the Seattle Field Office would say, okay, mail me your hair, but that's not how they did it. The Seattle office mailed the slide out to other places for them to compare it, and at some point that hair slide got lost. Also looking into that, because we could identify them with DNA through that hair, but unfortunately the glue that they used to affix the hair to the slide in nineteen seventy one more than likely at this point in time that glue has degraded any chance of us getting DNA. Even if we found the slide. I think, doesn't DNA for so many years, like it starts to deteriorate anyways, after so many years, I believe so. Yeah, I was thinking that tune you're talking about the cigarette buds, like, man, if they had those, they could pull DNA. But I was like, I don't know how long the DNA is viable for after so many years. I don't know. I think that they could get real, real close, even after fifty years. But the problem, especially with the hair slide that may or may not exist anymore, is looking into it, and then the glue that they used to affix those slides back then over time would degrade the DNA much faster than time itself. Yeah, back then they weren't going to uh be able to do DNA that that was just nothing they've ever done before. So I understand it wasn't even an idea. Yeah, so I understand why that wasn't like one of the precautions or whatever. But to me, it's looking back at it now, they're like, man, we had evidence that we could have used, but back then it was no fingerprints, no point keeping it. It is weird though they kind of destroyed that they didn't try and keep them. But I don't know. I don't know. I've thought about that too, and I guess my logic behind it is, if I'm running an evidence locker, do I want cigarette butts sitting around? Probably not, because even I mean, even if you put cigarette butts in a plastic bag, it's gonna stink. Yeah, that's the one thing that I'm I'm not a smoker, but I do notice it a lot. I think it's because I'm not one, so I do notice that smell. So it's the one thing that I would agree with that if you kept it and there, you'd smell it. For some reason, my nose is very sensitive to cigarette smoke. It's kind of strange book. But also in nineteen seventy one, there's a good chance the guy running the evidence locker was smoking cigarettes. True. Back in those days, I felt like everyone could smoke everywhere. It didn't matter what you did, and everyone was walking around into restaurants, buildings. That was all un place. Imagine being in a plane with eighty five people and seventy of them are smoking. I remember watching movies where people were smoking on airplanes. They like smoking. It's still strange. They again different times, but just from where I'm at today, Like, there's certain places you can't go into, like my state, anything that you have smoking in you have to be at least twenty one to get in. There is considered a bar. You can't smoke anywhere unless it's outside. But I actually think they made this Aside bars, everything else is smoke free. I don't know how it is in other states, but I just know here in Indiana that's how it is. Oh yeah, there's a handful of bars in some states that still out smoking, but I mean most of the states, especially west of the Mississippi, you can't even smoke in a bar. Yeah, it's weird, but Again, for me, I grew up in this area where we didn't have it, so to me, it's not any different. But I do remember as a kid people were smoking and burgering that they're little smoking sections. But bar is the where the case goes and everything. I know. There's a lot of weird stuff that happened, and we talked to little bit about how there was beliefs that the CIA may have been involved in some other things. If you want to talk about a little bit about some of that. Oh yeah, just you know Cooper, he only exists for about five hours. He boards the plane at two point fifty and then his proposed jump time is just a little bit after eight. And there is no story before that, and there is no story after that. So in this case, when you are able to find a suspect, you're sort of filling in all these details. But if you want a good CIA connection and suspect, I get into some pretty deep conspiracy theory stuff here. So there's a gentleman named Najeeb Hallibe, and off the top of my head, I'm gonna mess up his uh, his positions, but he was like head of the FAA and president of United Airlines, and a very very big d in commercial aviation. November twenty fourth, nineteen seventy one, the day of the hijacking, he's meeting with Richard Nixon to discuss airline safety. Now, that is an incredible coincidence if I've ever heard one. And then to tie in Nixon again, E Howard Hunt, who is one of Nixon's plumbers who you may remember from the Watergate trials. He's sitting there with sunglasses on. Now, Cooper famously don sunglasses during his hijacking, and E Howard Hunt always sort of imagined himself this James Bond character. He wrote spy novels. You know, he got real close to being a James Bond type character as one of Nixon's plumbers. And so he's a guy that would have had the ability to plan something like this and more than likely would have had the ability to execute something like this. Now, does he do this with approval from Nixon's CIA, some sort of a shady government thing, or does he do it? Does he go rogue and do it himself, knowing that if he got caught, he could say he was doing it for the benefit of airline security, which I don't know how true, either one of those are, but he's the right age. He sort of fits the physical description. I really really love that we have an example of him wearing sunglasses and doors, which Cooper did to hide his identity. If you want another crazy CIA tied suspect, one of the better suspects in this case is a gentleman by the name of Ted Braiden. And Ted Braden, at like six teen years old, uses like a fake ID so he can sign up for the military and go serve in World War two. Continues his military career as just like this crazy do all badass. He's in Vietnam on this team called macv SAG, which is just like this secret special ops badass force. And while on that, he goes a wall and is discovered working as a mercenary in the Congo and he's arrested and sent back to Fort Dix where he's going to stand trial for a wall and desertion and it's not going to be awesome. And now I spoke to one of the guards at Fort Dix that observed Ted Braden there and he said the first time he walked by Ted Braiden sell Ted Braden was in full uniform with a belt buckle and poulish shoes. He was smoking a wood tipped cigar and watching a television and he told me, Darren, none of those things I just mentioned were allowed at all. So I knew right away whatever is going on with the guy in the cell, it's well above my pay grade. And when the day came for Braiden to stand trial, instead of standing trial, he was released from the prison with a note that said there wasn't enough staff to do the trial that day, which is it doesn't make any sense and obviously it's a lie. Ted Braden had a very close friend named Jack Synglob who worked for the CIA, who could have been looking out for him. Also, Ted Braiden would would have done some things for the government that potentially they didn't want those to get out. But even arguing against that, if they already have him in custody, what's the risk of that getting out. Wouldn't it just be easier for him to be locked in a military prison for the rest of his life or they could just kill him, So why does he get out? Also, I have a couple of friends in the Stebe Cooper community that have let's just say more access to background checks than the average person. And if you look up Ted Braiden, there's no information. And I'm not talking about like there isn't much, there's nothing when there should be all of these records that every human being in the United States has. And again I'm not talking about that you could just google someone and pull up records. These are systems that you pay for that have limited access where you can get records for things, and there's nothing on Ted Braiden. Drew Beeson good friend of mine. He wrote this great book on Ted Braden, the Paratrooper of Fortune. In talking to family and friends and just poring over this guy Ted Braiden's life, he found this great story where Ted Braiden gets arrested for duy in his seventies and he had no license, played on the car, no registration, no insurance, no license, no identification, and refused to identify himself to the police officer. That's pretty weird for a guy in his seventies who already has a storied, shady past. I was gonna ask after the whole incident, did they change anything far as like requirements for airlines, like for people to get on there for passengers. Well, there was a huge debate. Like I said to Jeeb Halliby was meeting with Nixon about airport security day of the hijacking. This wasn't the first airline hijacking by any means. There was a lot going on at that time, but none of those hijackings were people jumping out of the airplane. They were almost all of them politically motivated, take me to Cuba, that kind of a thing. And so this was a novel crime. The one thing that we can completely attribute as a security change by dB Cooper was I'm not sure if it was Boeing, but one of the airplane manufacturers develop what they nicknamed the Cooper vane. And what that would do is when the plane was flying, there would be enough wind against this little flap or a wind vane, and it would push that to the side and lock that aft staircase, so then the staircase could not be lowered or even lifted up when the plane was in motion. But security was already a big deal at the time. The problem was everyone knew we needed airport security, but no one wanted to be the one to do it. The airport was saying that the government should be responsible for the security at airports. The government was saying that the airlines should be responsible for their own security, and the airlines were saying the airport should be in charge of security. So they all knew that it needed to be done, but they were all waiting for someone else to do it. I wish I could tell you that Cooper was the one that changed all that, but it was a slow process over years before we had metal detectors and drug dogs and airports and training on visual screenings and who to look out for, and then we didn't see the security we deal with today until after nine to eleven. Yeah, so I know nine to eleven changed a lot of things, but I wasn't sure how it used to be before that. I've never been on a plane up until the early two thousands, so I wasn't exactly sure what kind of protocols came into place after the whole dB Cooper thing. If the CIA is involved and is politically agendaed or something like that, I could see them doing something to cause the effect of what they're wanting, like pushing that narrative. But yeah, I mean, it wasn't even until years after GB Cooper where you had the bare minimum of metal detectors and somebody needs to see your identification. Which is strange in today's concepts to think about that. You could just ord an airplane and they didn't have to have any sort of information about you. There's a really good book about the airline industry and sort of this skyjacking craze of the late sixties early seventies called The Skies Belong to Us by Brendan Kerner, And one of my favorite parts about that book is he talks about how easy it was to get on a plane. Back then. There were planes where you could go to the airport, walk to the plane, board the plane with no ticket, and then the stewardess would walk down the aisle in the air to check your ticket, and if you didn't have a ticket, she would say, all right, Brandon, you're flying to Cleveland today. That'll be forty seven dollars and you paid in the air. Weird times, wild times. Yeah, I could see we're back in those days. If people did commit like some kind of a crime, it'd be easy to get away, you would think, just because they could go and just tell us someone that they're whoever they want to be, and then they just they're off and they're gone. Yeah, we're trying to hunt this guy down. We have no photos of him, we have no videos of him. We don't have an audio recording of him. We we don't have his real name. They don't even know exactly where he jumped from, do they. They didn't have any like, did anyone actually see him leave the plane and to kind of get an idea of what parts that he actually jumped from. No one saw him leave the plane. They had too I'm gonna call him F one oh six is that's probably wildly wrong. But they had these two planes I believe that were from the Air National Guard that followed that that seven twenty seven, to see if they could see Cooper jump from the plane or maybe even worst case scenario, if Cooper was going to blow that bomb, maybe maybe they would do something else. But because it was night and because Cooper got them to fly that plane at about two hundred miles an hour, two hundred miles an hour was just below the stall speed of those chase planes, so they were speeding up and slowing down and making turns to just kind of stay behind the plane. So they never even really had a chance to see a body drop out the ass end of that plane at night from a distance, and Tina Mucklow, he had her go up into the cab or into the cockpit. I'm sorry, but the idea of where Cooper landed, we don't get that until thirty six hours after he jumps from the plane. So during that flight to Reno, the cockpit is in constant communication with air traffic control, and sitting beside air traffic control are the police and the FBI. They're also tracking this plane with what's called the Sage radar system, which was brand new at the time, and we had installed or the Air Force had installed that as this fancy radar system, so they could see if there were any Russians coming to get us. So they used that to track this plane as well. And so in between eight eleven and eight fourteen, depending on if you think it's the oscillations or the pressure bump, which that goes real deep, but the pilots basically experienced the aircraft moving a little bit enough that required correction in their controls, and they also experienced what they described as a pressure bump, like they felt the pressure increase in the cabin for a second. And so They theorized that that was from when dB Cooper was standing on those backstairs and jumps, and then after he jumps, the end pushes that back staircase up. It sort of bounces back into place and causes that pressure bump. Now, to test that theory, they took the exact same aircraft, not the same make and model, the exact one that dB Cooper hijacked, and they flew it out over the Pacific Ocean and pushed a two hundred pounds sled off to the aft stairs to see if it would recreate the pressure bump that the pilots felt, and they believed that it did, so then they use that as a marker to win Cooper jumps. Now, the plane is traveling at two hundred miles an hour and you have some eastbound wind at the time. You also have to think when Cooper jumped, does he open his shoot right away or did he free fall for a little bit, Because if he opens his shoot right away, then he's going to drift much farther east. If he free falls for a bit, it's going to shorten that drift considerably. So they basically made this map of this is where Cooper's proposed drop zone might be. They did a real brief search of that area at that time, and in that area it's probably just starting to snow. You'll probably get sustained snow on the ground for a little while. There's parts of that that are some seriously thick brush, So with snow, it's not really something you're going to be able to march through the woods with. So there were a couple of quick searches, but there wasn't a real big ground search of his proposed drop zone until four or five months later, I want to say it was March or April. By the time they had they had like three hundred people stomped through the brush to see if they could find anything. It was National Guard, County sheriffs, volunteers, there were boy scouts that were part of that group. The next day after the skyjacking, they flew the It wasn't the next day, but real close. So the next morning they had small aircraft and other chase planes fly that route from Seattle to Reno to see if we could find you a parachute stuck in a tree or obviously this is where he landed, see if you could see anything. And they also had the SR seventy one blackbird fly that flight path and use its fancy camera to document that whole thing. It's the Pacific Northwest. So the first time they do that, there was too much cloud cover and it made it basically useless. So they had to do it a second time, which neither one of those produced any results. What was the weather like the night that he'd jump. Was it clear or is the cloud ear? It was cloudy, typical Pacific north weather, Pacific Northwest weather. It would have been overcast with a light rain about forty five degrees on the ground. Yes, I'm thinking like it'd be weird in the sense of everyone's talking about it for so long, But what if you didn't survive the jump, but you still They never found the body. They never found a shoe. But like, if a guy jumps from a plane at dark, it's cloudy, it's a little windy, could be drizzling. What if something goes wrong the shoot doesn't he gets stuck in tree. There's so many things that could have went wrong in the whole situation, and he may have died on before he ever made it to the ground. So it's it's one of those things. Is like it's it's still I've questioned it too. I was like, how did the guy survive at all? Especially like, even if you land there in the middle of nowhere, you have to track out of there in order to get to where you're going, like you still have to go through wilderness. I will say there is no evidence that he survived the jump. Also, there is no evidence that he died in the jump, And people say a lack of evidence is not evidence of something else. In this case, I'm kind of leaning that other way. I think the lack of evidence that he died in the jump is sort of evidence that he survived. So you have a couple things to consider about this. There's this great book by Martin Androde Finding dB Cooper, Chasing the Last Lead, and a lot of that book is about the survivability of that jump. Is it doable, what are the odds? How can it be done? The parachute that he used, And one of my favorite parts about that is he compares World War II ejections over Europe and their survivability. So you're talking about planes with mechanical failure maybe, but most likely planes that have been shot and are damaged to beyond the point of saving it, and now the crew or the pilot or whoever we got a bail, and he found something like a ninety seven percent survival rate for those men, and the vast majority of them would have had one practice jump or only classroom training on how to use a parachute, and they're jumping out in the worst conditions. Cooper's conditions are not awesome, but the planes not spiraling out of control to the ground. He also found that if you dig in those numbers a little deeper, it could be as much as two percent were dead before they hit the ground anyway, so the parachute helping them survive doesn't matter at all, or if they were a no pull. So parachutes work, they work, they will get you to the ground safely. So if Cooper doesn't survive his jump, there are two ways this happens. One is he pulls his ripcord, the parachute deploys or half deploys. Maybe some failure he ends up in a tree or a super hard impact on the ground, breaks his legs, or even dies on impact. If he pulled that ripcord and it deployed at all, he has found as soon as the sun comes up there's no doubt about that. That did not happen. The other way Cooper dies in the jump from my point of view, is a no pull where he just doesn't pull the ripcord. And Cooper's jump is not ideal, but it's not it's not bad enough where he wouldn't have pulled the ripcord. And back to my point earlier about you driving F one cars, Are you gonna plan this when you don't even know how to pull a ripcord? No, So, at the very least, I think he has some jump experience, which would mean he pulls the ripcord. There is People like to talk about him landing in water. What I would have to say to that is, what are the odds he lands in water. Let's draw a line from Seattle to Reno. How much water is in between Seattle and Reno, and then let's compare that to how much land is in between Seattle and Reno, And those are the odds that he lands in water. Now, if he pulls his ripcord and the parachute deploys and he lands in water again, he's found really quickly. You can look at a handful of other parachute landing scenarios. There is a scenario where maybe he gets tangled up in the chute and the whole thing goes down, But even in that scenario, he's sort of gonna emerge towards the top of the water again, in that tangled bundle of human and parachute would be found, which it has not been so myself and I would say ninety nine percent of the other people that have spent hundreds of hours researching this case and thinking about it would be on the side that he survived the jump. To defend my point of him surviving the jump, Cooper spawned a handful of copycats. Cooper's copycats ranged in parachuting ability, from green berets who parachuted for the military and then were recreational skydivers to a gentleman that didn't know how to use a parachute and asked for instructions. All of those people were successfully able to use their parachute and get to the ground, even Mart McNally. That's an interesting one because the pilots were like this guy, he's a fool. He doesn't know the difference between two hundred miles an hour and four h miles an hour. From the sky, let's kill him with speed. So the pilots pushed the plane up to well over three hundred miles an hour and McNally jumps and is knocked unconscious by the wind, regains consciousness in the air, pulls the rip cord, and gets to the ground. He loses the money and is arrested shortly after that, but he still gets to the ground. My thing with all of that, the speed and everything, like, even at two hundred miles an hour, to me, seems ridiculously fast. Obviously in an airplane, it's not as fast as you would think, but at two hundred miles an hour and you jumped from the plane, I feel like he had to have some sort of experience. Like you said, you don't just do that just to do it. You have to have some sort of familiarity with it. So it kind of makes me think maybe he'd have some sort of training, so he could have been military. What did the other passengers say, Did anyone else like give a description of him, of like age, wives, of where he could how old he could have possibly have been, other than just like the stewardess. There is one passenger that takes a good look at him and it's for a hilarious reason. So, like I mentioned the stewardess that sat next to him, Tina Mucklow, she was a beautiful young woman. She's twenty two years old and just a total smoke show. And so, like I mentioned earlier, Cooper's one of the last to board via the aft staircase and sits in the back. So if I told you I sat in the back of the plane, you're picturing me walking past every row of people to sit in the back. In this plane, they boarded from the back, so he didn't walk past anyone, He just sat right down in the back row. Across the aisle from him was a college student heading home for Thanksgiving named Bill Mitchell. And Bill Mitchell saw this smoke show stewardess and his thought was, why is that is a quote from him, I've spoken to him. Why is that geeky old guy getting all the attention from her? Why not me? Like, why isn't she talking to me? And I just I love that line of thinking because I could picture myself as a twenty two year old or a twenty year old guy like thinking the exact same thing. Why is she talking to that geeky old guy, and he's really the only guy that got a good look Tina Mucklow. She sits next to him for about three hours. She lit his cigarettes for him, they had some conversation. Not a lot of people got a good look. But the age that Cooper's penda is mid to late forties. The descriptions from a couple other passengers, which I'm not even super confident in. It's one of those things where you know, let's say you and I are at the bar having a drink, and then the police run in and arrest this guy and run out, and then they ask us to give a description of that guy. We didn't pay attention to him, we weren't looking at him. But now because they're interested, now both of us have something to say. Oh like, oh yeah, I remember he was wearing this jean jacket, blah blah blah. And some of those details might not even be accurate, but you and I both want to say something to the police, and I think there's a little bit of that going on. But he's the youngest description of him I want to say is like thirty five, and the oldest is fifty five. But it's generally believed mid to late forties. And that's something that I think about a lot. In this case, if I just told you, hey, you won't believe this. Brandon. There was this hijacking that happened yesterday and he ended up jumping out of the plane and it was wild. Guess how old this guy was. You'd probably say twenty three, twenty four. You wouldn't say forty seven, because by the time you're forty seven, your life's kind of already in place, and more than likely you can't afford to go to jail. You don't want to go to jail. You're not committing these types of crazy crimes. And also, you know, like I mentioned, the passengers didn't know the plane was being hijacked. Cooper was in complete control of the situation and he was calm, cool, and collected the entire time. Tina mucklow is in a press conference immediately after the hijacking and reno and comments that he was polite, he was never unkind. He got annoyed at one point when refueling the plane took too long, but he was never cruel or unfriendly to me. Those are her exaus act words. So, who would be this guy that has this crazy knowledge about the aircraft. Who's older, who couldn't control this situation like this, someone who could plan and execute this, Like I mentioned, one of the copycats was a Green Beret. That's a guy who has been involved in the planning and execution of quite a few operations. And his hijacking is very well planned. I think he even made some improvements on Cooper's, but his execution is very poor. He drew attention to himself right away. He made goofy mistakes. People noticed that he was wearing makeup, People noticed that he was wearing a wig, people noticed that he was acting funny. Tina Mucklow sits next to Cooper for three hours and says he wasn't wearing any makeup or any sort of disguise. He puts sunglasses on, and when people try to tell me, oh, my suspect he had he put huddy behind his ears to hold him back, or he was wearing makeup, or he put Hoddy on his chin to remove his dimpled chin. Bullshit, absolute bullshit. A twenty two year old woman has worn makeup? How many times by this point in her life? Hundreds of times? How many times have I worn makeup? I don't know twenty and nineteen of those were Halloween. I don't know anything about makeup, But would a twenty two year old woman who is wearing makeup and puts makeup on and buys makeup, would she notice that the guy sitting directly next to her has makeup on? Absolutely and she says no makeup. Seems strange to me. That and just in general, like the copycat thing, I don't understand why people would. I guess because he got away, they all think they could do that. But again, it goes back to what I said earlier, like it's almost like the perfect crime because there's nothing. He didn't exist and he's never existed since he was only would you what do you say? It was five hours? Only existed for five hours. Yeah, it's crazy to me because again, two hundred thousand dollars today it's it's good money, but it's not the same equivalent of what it was back then. But even a million dollars today, if I heard someone did all this for a million dollars, it does almost doesn't seem worth it, you know what I mean, Like in today's standards, like a million dollars, Yeah, it's a million dollars but like going through the trouble of hijacking a plane, which today is almost impossible to kind of do, especially the way he did it, but the risk and everything else for such a minimal amount of game, having to survive the jump, having to somehow make it out of the wilderness, and to get back to civilization and be undetective for the rest of your life. Like the whole thing to me is like I said, it is always fascinating to me in the sense of it's just strange of how there's no trace of this guy ever and then never again exactly. It's what's so baffling about this. I've used this analogy before, but the dB Cooper case is like the most interesting and exciting book I've ever read. But somebody ripped out the first four chapters and the last five chapters, and now I'm just desperately searching for those beginning an end to this story. I've read some stuff and I don't know. I go down rabbit holes. I read the dB Cooper didn't even exist. The whole thing was like made up, which I don't see all these people being involved in I'm making up story, but that we are ten Foil tells here, so we got to cover the out there theories. But Brandon, are you trying to piss me off? No? But okay, I have to address this. There are two theories that if you're new to the case, you will have one of these two theories come to your mind. I'm not exactly sure why that is, but it is always the case. Those two theories are dB Cooper never existed and the flight crew was either in on it or completely cooked him up. The other theory is that dB Cooper never jumped from the plane. He hit on the plane, and then magically, when the all the law enforcement walked away turned their back, he casually walks off the plane. I'll address that first one first. So the idea that Cooper doesn't exist is just not true. He was seen by the gate agent, he was seen by the passenger Bill Mitchell. I'm excluding the flight crew that saw him. He was seen by a couple of other passengers on that plane. He was seen by people in the airport. They observed him standing looking out the window. Now at an airport, that's not unusual. Lots of people stand by the window and look at planes, look at the weather. But I mean, obviously he's sort of doing that so that nobody gets a good look at his face. If this is well planned, as I think it is, so Cooper existed. Now it's a possibility. I guess that Cooper is a friend of one of the flight crew, or he's in on it with the flight crew. I have spoken to many, many people that worked for the airlines in the sixties and seventies, stewardesses, highlots, baggage handlers, everyone, and especially the pilots and stewardess's the flight crew. That was a very glamorous job. That was a desirable job. It was a job that paid well, It was a job that had prestige. It was a job where you could be a twenty two year old woman and travel the world in a glamorous way. And everyone I've talked to that worked for the airlines in the sixties and seventies says the same thing. They loved their job and it was fun and it was glamorous. So now we're going to take depending on how many people in the flight crew could be involved anywhere between let's say, at a minimum four at most seven are going to be involved in this. Now, if you know anything about flight crews, there's a good possibility that that crew didn't know they were working together until that morning or maybe even earlier that week. And then even then, crews change a little bit. So the idea that you're going to plan this with a flight crew that may or may not be working together doesn't work. And now you're going to whack up two hundred thousand dollars five ways, seven ways, and not only risk your career but your liberty to do this. It doesn't make any sense. And also, there is zero evidence that I've seen, and I've I'm deep in this to support the idea that any of the flight crew was in on this at all. Doesn't make sense. There's no evidence for it, and logically doesn't make sense. The second theory that people come to that he didn't jump. If you've ever been on an airplane, you know they're using every inch of that aircraft. If there was an extra space that they could fit a body in, they would put a seat there and charge you for it. There is no secret cabinet that a man can fit inside. Also, when the plane lands at Reno, the FBI did not believe that Cooper was going to jump from that plane, so they were ready on the ground in Reno. One of the flight crew opens that back door and hollers out if Cooper's there, doesn't receive an answer, walks to the back, sees that Cooper's not there, walks out the aft stairs, and then immediately the plane is boarded by law enforcement and the plane is searched with dogs. One of the other hilarious things about this skyjacking is that back to Cooper being polite when he was on the ground in Seattle. Somehow, I'm not sure how he knew that that was going to be the last stop for that flight crew. I want to say they went from like Missoula to Spokane to Portland to Seattle was their shift that day. Don't quote me on that exactly, but I am positive of the last two steps. And so when they land in Seattle, Cooper asks, as part of his demands for meals for the flight crew to be brought on board, so he cared enough about them that he didn't want them to be hungry even but when the plane is searched with dogs, the flight crew did not eat those meals. The dogs did. I don't know where, Like I said, the whole aspect of saying he didn't exist, like where they're saying they were involved in it or anything like that. It was more or less just saying that they didn't believe that DV. Cooper was a real person. Oh yeah, And I'm just I'm giving you a little bit of shift for it, But it is, it is very popular. I've heard that hundreds of times, and I think it truly is like you watch one thing on Cooper and you're like, well, okay, they didn't figure it out, but what if it's this? And I understand thinking that because I've been in this so long where I'm like, well, what if it's this, or what if it's this? But then you realize, like that ground has been treadover dozens hundred thousands of times. It's really tough in this now to come up with new and novel ideas because we have so little to go on that we've been floating crazy ideas now for fifty three years. It kind of goes back into even what I do here when I talk to people that have even we'll just throw it into the completely off topic. But like people have been debating the Patterson Gimlin Bigfoot film, which I'm sure you probably are familiar with it because everyone knows, like the story of Bigfoot, like the guys were out filming in the nineteen sixties and that's the infamous Bigfoot footage. Everyone today still debates if that was a man in a suit or if it was real, when. Even the name of the footage suggests it wasn't. And to me, it's like, you're never going to know because the guy died and people come out and claim they've made a suit, and everyone that's made the suit claims they're in that suit. The suit looks nothing like the video they've had. People from Hollywood suit makers claim that that was not a possibility to make a suit like that back in the nineteen sixties, but it sure as hell looks like a man in a suit. So it's like back in those days the technology they had, like these people were going out to find said thing and they found said thing. To me, it sounds very fishy, like two cowboys went out there and found a mysterious monkey man. Okay, But at the same time, it's like, but dB Cooper, this guy doesn't have any record of him anything, shows up on a plane five hours later, he's gone, never no trace of him again. And now the people are saying, well, he didn't exist. It was all a big fake thing. And it all goes back to the same type of the mindset of because people don't have evidence to prove it one way or the other, then they have to start making things up. Would you like me to connect Bigfoot to dB Cooper for you? If you can, I would love to hear it. Well, they're both Pacific Northwest, they're both in the right area. The area dB Cooper jumps from is an absolutely an area you could see Bigfoot. I believe there is a Bigfoot museum in that drop zone. But there is a I'm not even sure what genre movie. There's a movie called Bigfoot Versus dB Cooper, and it is very light on Bigfoot content, and it is very light on dB Cooper, but it is full of homo erotic shots of shirtless guys working out. If you've never seen it, I would highly recommend it. But it doesn't make a lot of sense. It's mostly just shirtless guys working out. It's apparently this one director makes these movies where the storyline of the movie has nothing to do with what the movie actually is. So it's like Bigfoot Versus dB Cooper and the next one could be Space Reptiles Invade Earth, but neither one is about what the title is. It's just shots of hot, young, shirtless guys. That's a very weird marketing ploy, but I guess if it works. Now, I bring up the big Foot thing because you mentioned it too. It's literally that happened in the same somewhat region, like it's not exactly the same spot, but it all happened up in that region of north like the North Pacific, and the timeframe is fairly close. I believe the one was nineteen sixty seven, sixty eight sixty nine, somewhere around there in Dbrisa is seventy one. I think Patterson Gimlin's Northern California. Yeah, it was Northern California. And I've been on the fence with that one since i've been a child, Like I always I wanted to believe. But everyone's like, oh, it's just a man in a suit. Today's technology. They've enhanced it and they claim, oh, you can see muscles moving. They've got four K resolution on Oh, it has breast, so it's actually a female. This is what I found strange. Back in the nineteen sixties, if two cowboys are going to make up some story about filming something, the fact that they made it female is a very clever thing. Like I don't know if a lot of people ever think about in that aspect, but like when you see suits made, you don't really ever think of them as being male or female. But they had enough gumption, I guess to make it a female that way. In the next fifty something years, when technology can enhance the video that you can actually see that it had boobs, it's now there. Yeah, maybe they knew there was going to be a really really desperate pornographic market for that too. Yeah, I'm sure they're actually sadly probably is. There's I know, there's a series of like bigfoot erotica books for women. That would explain the recent trend of people like women and bears in the woods. Don't I don't don't. I don't fully understand that either. I just keep saying a lot of people, a lot of women, saying they'd rather be out in the worlds with the bear than a man. It was like, okay, well whatever, I don't I don't quite understand it myself, but hey teach their own. But now far as getting back with dB Cooper and everything. Try and wrap this one up. If you had to pinpoint one direction, one person, whatever, Who do you honestly think about all the suspects that you've looked into, who do you think the one that would be the most logical. Most logical. There's probably three suspects. We talked about Ted Braden m H. I think it's a fantastic suspect. There's a numerous suspect with a JFK assassination connection. It's not even a connection if you're deep in JFK. I'm sure you've heard the name Lauren Hall or Skip Hall directly involved and was part of those public hearings, or may not have even been one of the people to pull a trigger in the JFK assassination. But man, is he a good dB Cooper suspect as well? The other one I really like. I go back and forth on this a little bit, but Wolfgang Gossip, who he confessed to both of his sons on their eighteenth birthday and confessed to two different lawyers in two different states. And I interviewed one of his sons, Greg and I sought Greg out. Greg didn't come to me, and when I reached out to him. He was like, yeah, I think I'd be willing to do that, but I don't know you. So I would like to have dinner first, because I drove out to where he was to do that episode, and I really don't like doing that because on my show, I want us to talk like for the first time, and so I'm honestly surprised by your answer, and I want to know this. I want to know that. I don't want to do that thing where I ask you the question and I already know the answer. I really don't enjoy that that much. But because I was desperate to talk to this guy Greg, I was like, yeah, we can go to dinner first, that's no problem. And so we go to dinner. And what I got from that was he just wanted to know that I wasn't going to manipulate his answers. He wanted to know from me that I didn't have like this agenda that I was trying to put him in this place so he could participate in my solve of the case or anything. I really just wanted to know what he had to say. And we became real friendly, real quick, and hung out and had a good time and then we actually went to his house, I did that interview, and I just found him so believable because he also he's not going around pitching this story. He has his own life, he has his own income. He's not like looking to get rich off dB Cooper. He's his own man. And he was very quick to point out to me that his father was not a good father, not great at all. He told me some really just some sad stuff. Not not really really terrible as far as like what bad dads can do, but just like he wasn't a good father. And so to have this guy who's not even is a big fan of his own father. And he told me he's not even sure himself if he believes that his dad was Dbe Cooper, but he likes it when guys like me look into it because he would like to see it solved. He's not going to be the one to do it, but he wants to know if his dad was or wasn't Dbi Cooper. And he told me, if I found out tomorrow one hundred percent that my dad was Dbie Cooper, I would be like, Okay, at least he was telling the truth about that, and then he would move on with his life or the other way around. He finds out one hundred percent your dad was not Dbie Cooper, and he'd be like, Okay, well that was just another thing he lied about, and he would move on with his life. If you look up Wolfgang Gossip, there's a really interesting video you can pull up on YouTube right now if you just type in Wolfgang Gossip for he's on the news in Seattle and not Seattle, I believe it's salt Lake. I'm sorry. He's on the local news in Salt Lake for performing an exorcism. He also became like a paranormal radio talk show host. Have you ever heard of Clyde Lewis. Yes, I have so. Clyde Lewis views Wolfgang Gossip as a mentor. HM. So next time you talk to Clyde Lewis, ask him about Wolfgang Gossip. I have not spoken to Clyde, and he is actually someone that I've contemplated on reaching out to, but I know he's got so much going on. I'm not at his level, so I don't thank you to reach back out to me. You know, I hung out with Clyde Lewis at Cooper Kahn in I think it was twenty nineteen, could have been twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen. A cool guy, an interesting guy. He's very intense. He sort of looks you in the eyes, has opens his eyes real wide, and has a big, prominent voice, and you've heard his voice on the radio. A cool, fun guy. I've tried to get him on my show. I've tried to get on his show in person. He's always like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it, and then I just never get a follow up or anything. Obviously, he's a busy guy. He's a popular guy. But that is how fight. If you're listening, hit me up. That is how a lot of the big I don't want to say big time, but like the larger fan based things are, the people that are in charge of those typically are too busy to come on smaller activities, which I get it. I'm busy a lot on my own stuff, and I'm nowhere near as big as any of those people. But you mentioned Cooper Fest. Would you like to let the audience know when that is coming up? Yeah, November fifteenth or the seventeenth at the Seattle Museum of Flight, which is probably one of the best aviation museums in the United States, if not the best thanks to its proximity to Boeing. Dbcooper Events dot Com. If you are familiar with the dB Cooper case at all, there's going to be a bunch of names you're familiar with authors. I'll be MC that event. Come see us, Come check it out. Dbcooper Events dot Com. Also, if you enjoy listening to podcasts, check my podcast out, The Cooper Vortex. Anywhere you get your podcasts. I'll make sure to include that in the show notes for anyone listening. So just go in there and you need to click on and I'll take you right to it. I think we can wrap this one up. I just want to say thank you to Darren. Appreciate you coming on here and talk with me tonight. This has always been something that I found interesting to you as a kid. Like we probably saw the same Unsolved Mysteries episode that got me interested in it. Oh a million percent was Unsolved Mysteries, and then Leonard Nimoy did that in Search of m HM that featured dB Cooper as well, and that was basically the only dB Cooper content maybe until the two thousands. Whenever, when without a Paddle came out. I remember that movie. Actually I have that movie. It's been so long since I've watched I actually saw something posted online about it that it's been twenty it's been out for twenty years now. I think that's alright, and I get like registered in my memories. I was like, I have that movie, like I got it when it came out. It was like down on my basement with all the other DVDs because anymore, like everyone got DVDs and now we got Blu rays, so we don't watch DVDs. But I kind of forgot that that had something to do with dB Cooper. The whole adventure is them going to find him. They want to find the dB Cooper and they Yeah, like I said, I haven't watched that movie years now, i'mn'a have to go watch it. But anyways, again, thanks to Darren. Make sure to check out the Cooper Vortex, and thanks for listening. But we will find you on the next one. So good night. Thanks for having me on. Yep, not a problem, and that's the show everyone. I really hope you guys enjoyed the conversations. If you would like to be a guest on tenfoil Tels. Remember to send an email to Tenfoil Tales Podcast at gmail dot com or go to the contact section of tenfoiltal dot com. Just get your message to me. We'll get some schedule for a future episode. And just remember the truth lies, and the stories we share, the connections we make. Stay curiously open minded. Thank you all for joining us on this journey, and until next time, keep questioning, keep seeking, and keep exploring the unknown. Good night everyone seen on. Sounds in the headphones. Yeah, it's turn to rock. Got a story about a crypty creature. Let's take a walk, thigs Foot tug Man. They're out there in the talk, but the truth is out. There likeingly as fuck. Us. Both signings got the whole. Worldsome conspiracies fons, like a story in the book. Control trying to keep us fine. We're all gonna use the whole mind in history. They don't want us to know the secrets they hide since they want show so they don't society. They keep us in chase, but in Talma's time to break the reins. Control trying to keep us fine. But I'm before gonna use a mind in history. They don't want us to know the secrets they hide since they will. Show THEMDAL Society, thank us and Chase. 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