Ep. 58: Leaving Eden - From Cults to Russia's Drilling Mystery

[00:00:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just turned around and I pulled ass out of there.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I was done. I wasn't dealing with that.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: The hypocrisy of the cult is one of the things that turned me away the quickest.

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_03]: When I turned my headlights on, it turned and looked at us.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the things I remember the most were the eyes were glowing red.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I see an orb of light. It is just circling these steps like it is waiting for me.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And he begins to tell them that he saw UFO. They're basically like, what are you talking about?

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That's seven foot up on a tree peeking around it and that's where I saw the top of the muzzle, nose and the eyes.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: As soon as I made eye contact with this thing, it felt like death.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello, foil fanatics and welcome to another new episode of Tinfoil Tales.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm your host Brandon Wright.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Tonight we're going to be joined by my guest, Gaby.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, Gaby has a podcast called Leaving Eden.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And it deals with a menace co-host who used to be in a cult.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And they talk about all sorts of topics related to the cult.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's what they talk about.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Before we dive into that, if you would like to be on an episode of Tinfoil Tales,

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_04]: all you got to do is send an email to tinfoiltalespodcast at gml.com.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll give you a schedule for a future episode.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_04]: If you'd like the help to show and you don't want to continue to hear these ads,

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_04]: you can join the Patreon.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_04]: You'll get access to early release episodes.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_04]: So if I record these and they're already posted up on there,

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_04]: you'll get them almost months in advance.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_04]: They'll be ad-free.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_04]: There'll be some other goodies on there for you as well, so that's worth checking out.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_04]: If you would still like to help the show and not join the Patreon,

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_04]: there is a donate button that you can always do.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_04]: The best way to help the show though is to share it around.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_04]: If you think this episode is a good episode and you'd like to share it with someone,

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_04]: by all means do that.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_04]: You're going to leave a review.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_04]: A five star review helps the rankings, but if you don't think the show deserves a five star review,

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_04]: you can feel free to leave whatever it is you believe that it deserves.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Make sure to find us on all the social medias, Facebook, Instagram,

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_04]: X.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_04]: You're on Spotify, Apple, whatever you listen to podcasts on.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_04]: We also have the YouTube.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_04]: If you're on YouTube and you'd prefer to listen to something else,

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_04]: you can do that as well.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_04]: There's all sorts of things you can do to find a podcast for pretty much streaming everywhere.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I wrote a book recently called Shadows of Cedarville.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_04]: It is available on Amazon and other fine retailers.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Everything that I'm saying is pretty much the same stuff I do every episode.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_04]: So all those notes are in the show notes.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_04]: So any links you need to find, just go right there.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_04]: That way I go ahead and now bring Gaby on.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Looking forward to diving into this cult stuff.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_04]: So hope you guys are as well.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_04]: So sit back, relax and enjoy the show.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I'd like to take this time to welcome my guest tonight, Gaby.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for coming out and talking with me.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me on Brandon.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy to be here.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to talk about cults.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to talk about some conspiracy stuff.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm excited to talk about a possible interesting creepypasta story in which the Soviet Union

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: allegedly drilled a hole down into hell if you're interested in hearing about that.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm always interested in hearing about some sort of creepypasta conspiracy stuff.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_04]: What's the Soviets drilling into hell?

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_04]: That's definitely right up my alley.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So my name is Gavriel Hukohan.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I co-host the Leaving Eden podcast with my best friend, Sadie Carpenter.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: She was raised in a cult.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: She was raised as a Christian fundamentalist in a very patriarchal, very conspiracy heavy,

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: very controlling branch of Christian fundamentalism.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And we talk about on that show, we talk about...

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: ...cults, we talk about religion, we talk about fundamentalism and we talk about the real and present

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_02]: threat that cults and cult ideologies pose to society as a whole.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And our goal of our show is to promote freedom of mind, freedom of thought and freedom of religion.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And in doing so, we often find ourselves talking about a lot of the very sort of weird fringe aspects

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_02]: of her upbringing.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And we have a platform in which we can really get into the reads about how cults use fear tactics

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and other sorts of like social pressure tactics to pressure people into behaving one way or another.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a lot of fun to get to do that.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's also a lot of fun that I didn't have to live through it, but I get to talk about it.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm happy to be here with you.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm definitely happy to have you here.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Cults are something that I wouldn't say I'm infatuated with, but I've always thought it was interesting that...

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_04]: ...and not to offend any listener, but I think a lot of religions to an extent can be very cultish.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_04]: And I've always wondered how people get to the point to where they could become so in-depth with a cult

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_04]: and not understand that they're in a cult.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Like just as an outsider, I'm not a religious person.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_04]: So for me it's easy to see it that way.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_04]: But for others it's just being raised in it.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_04]: I understand you have no choice because that's what you know.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_04]: But there's so many aspects from being an outsider looking in that some of these religions are just like...

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_04]: ...makes me scratch my head of how they don't realize it.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, absolutely.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: That's my experience doing the show as well.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I am a religious person.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Jewish.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But I was raised very liberally.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I was raised very in a manner in which the level to which I decided to pursue that was left up to my own choice.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And so when I get to be on a show with somebody and I have a friend who was raised so different from that

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and that when she grows...

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: When she told me the story about how when she was a small child

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: she had my friend who I co-host the Leading Eden podcast with her name is Sadie Carpenter.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And she will tell me about how when she was a small child she had an intense fear of going to hell.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And how heavily that weighed on her even when she was like three, four...

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Or I don't know about three but like four, five, six years old.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know I think to people like us who were not raised in that environment of fear

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: it's so interesting to be an outsider looking in and to talk about that stuff

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: because for people like us we think of the way that we think about things as the default.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's so many other people that were raised so different

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and had to learn about things like that.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You know just learn about even basic aspects of the way that society functions

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: outside of the framework that they're used to that we just take for granted.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah I was raised in a most of my family are Pentecostal Christians

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_04]: and that's just not something that I've ever been associated with.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Obviously when I was a kid I had no choice but I went but as I've gotten older

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_04]: church and everything like that it's just not something that I've been involved with I guess.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just I don't...

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I myself don't care that someone is in a certain religion or whatever that if it works for them

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_04]: that's great I said that before like what do you do whatever works for you guys.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Me myself I do what I do that works best for me and that's I just don't assign myself to one specific religion.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and I mean I think that's totally fair you know it's to whatever end that you decide to...

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: as long as it's your own personal choice I think that's the most important thing.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: No but I do think it's interesting to talk about how religions become cults

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and how you know where that gray area is.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And is that something you'd like to talk about now because I can talk about that if you're interested in that.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah go ahead.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So there is a researcher whose name is Stephen Hassan I don't know if you've heard of him

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: but he was at one point a member of the Moondi cult

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and since getting out he has taken to becoming sort of the preeminent cult expert

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: in that he has developed a framework in which we can talk about when something becomes a cult

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and he's developed this framework that he calls the bite model

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and the bite model is an acronym for behavior control information control thought control and emotion control.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So those are the four aspects with which something can take over your life.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So there can be a religion that has you know I've heard people say things like a cult is a religion

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean a religion is a cult plus a million members or a religion is a cult plus a thousand years or something like that.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But there can be religions that have a million members and are extremely culty

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and there can be groups that are thousands of years old that are extremely culty

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and there can be cults that have just one on one that can literally just be two people in it.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't know if you knew this but even an abusive or a controlling interpersonal relationship

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: or like a romantic relationship that turns abusive can be classified as a cult under Stephen Esson's bite model.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's actually quite interesting when you look at it.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So I can talk about the four aspects of that if you're at all interested in that.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah sure. I'm sure the listeners like to know about it.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah so behavior control and the whether or not something is a cult is not to do with whether or not there are any aspects of this that exist.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Because when I say behavior control, behavior control can be anything from a religion that tells you what you can and can't wear

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_02]: or a religion that tells you what you should and shouldn't eat.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And just because a religion will do something like that will not necessarily make it a cult.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's the degree to which they have a control over your life and whether or not there is possibly a method of punishment behind that.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So behavior control like I said could be what you wear or what you eat but it could also be something like they could try to control your sexuality.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They could try to control what you do throughout your day where you are allowed to and where you aren't allowed to go.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_02]: They could control if you're in a cult that is say on a compound part of behavior control could be you can't leave this compound,

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: you can't leave this area, you can go to this area, you can't go to that area.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So there are parts of it that could be just like benign things that you choose to buy into because you're a member of a community.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But there are also behavior control aspects that are things that could legitimately be very damaging to your life if you keep going on and keep going forward with them

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and you allow them to be that level of controlling.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's behavior control.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: The information control aspect of it is interesting because once we get into behavior, I mean, once we get into information control,

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_02]: it's much more like things that you are doing to yourself.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So when you're practicing it or if a cult practices information control on a person, information control would be like saying you can only listen to information that is coming from pre-approved sources

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: or you can't talk to outsiders.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the big aspects of cult control is creating an in-group versus out-group dynamic where basically you can only trust information that is coming from within the in-group

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and any information that comes from outside of that is suspect is not something that you can trust.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is one of the big aspects of it.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that cults will do is they'll encourage spying on other members, ratting other members out for possible infringements on the code of conduct,

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: something like that or morality code, a level of legalism that gets practiced onto people and somebody.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_02]: They'll make a lot of rules that basically everybody is in violation of the rules at some point and whether or not they prosecute you for your violations of the rules will be based on whether or not they want to control you.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's part of information control and that they will encourage members to spy on each other, rat on each other to build an environment of distrust among other people.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that can, like I said before, that could be in a large group, in a large, say a religious setting.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It could be in a one-on-one not religious setting.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're in, say, like an abusive or controlling relationship, then your abusive partner could say something like,

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want you to talk to this person because this person doesn't have your best interest at heart.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you talk to that person, then they will get mad at you because then maybe they'll say,

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: oh, that's a violation of trust. Why are you talking to this person?

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: This person doesn't want the best for us.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: This person is always trying to sabotage us when that person is trying to possibly help you out.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So that I think is an element of information control as well.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_02]: When we get into thought control and emotion control, these are aspects of cult control that are often done by a person administered to that person, to themselves.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So they can, like for thought control, one thing that springs to mind is they will tell you there are good thoughts to have.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: There are bad thoughts to have. And these are the thoughts that are good.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: These are the thoughts that allow you to either build closeness to God or build closeness to whatever deity.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Or these are negative thoughts and these negative thoughts are not good thoughts that you should have in your head

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and you shouldn't allow yourself to feel them. And that's when it gets to things like thought control.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_02]: That is an idea that you have to administer on to yourself because you are the only one who can...

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to say you're the only one who can control what you think because we're all influenced by outside information.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But there can come to a level where you can practice a level of control on yourself.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And the same with emotion control. Whereas with emotion control, you can...

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: That's something that you will have to do to yourself where you will have to practice either saying,

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like these emotions are good and I should be allowed to feel these feelings or I shouldn't be allowed to feel these feelings

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: because I think these emotions are bad and these emotions are not conducive to the life I want to live

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: or being part of this group that I feel like my identity is tied up and being a part of.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But those are basically the four aspects, behavior control, information control, thought control and emotion control

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and they can take many forms.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Sounds like a lot of the typical things that you do hear about when it just comes to cults.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_04]: They don't want them having contact with the outside. They want them to make sure that they're afraid of the higher power

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_04]: but they also want the cult leader to be that higher power in most of their eyes.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a strange concept that the leaders are usually the ones that can talk to whatever deity that it is

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_04]: that they're supposedly talking to. But then they look towards the leader as the actual almost god type of mentality.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess what drives the cult mentality through the whole thing is the people themselves are almost worshiping the leader

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_04]: instead of the god that he claims he talks to.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh absolutely and it is invariably a man, isn't it? It's almost always a man.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I say he but like I don't really know of any cults that's been driven by a woman.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess that's why I kind of generalize it as a man.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Well I'm trying to think, you know, I think that there are probably some personality cults that are around female cult leaders.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: One that I'm thinking, do you remember Theranos?

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Was that Elizabeth Holmes where she created a product that was supposed to test blood for all sorts of different, you know,

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: it was supposed to do a lot of different blood tests and there was a whole, I think there was a Hulu mini series about it.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But you know, cults of personality can absolutely be a thing like the business world.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: You see that a lot in like Silicon Valley and like tech startups.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, another thing I would say classifies as cults a lot of times would be, I think, really authoritarian regimes.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I think a good example of this is like in North Korea with Kim Jong-un,

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I would definitely classify that as being a cult in that the information is so heavily controlled

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and basically information that is not regime propaganda is not allowed to permeate

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and people are not allowed to consume and there's punishment for that.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And the way that people there view him as almost a godlike figure, I would definitely say that that constitutes a cult.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_02]: You could say the same thing as there was a cult of personality around, you know, historical authoritarian leaders,

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: historical, you know, people who committed atrocities like Stalin or like Hitler.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And there was definitely a cult of personality around those people and their relevant political ideologies to the things that they believed

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_02]: definitely curried cult like fervor among their adherents.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no, that's I definitely agree that for anyone that's not familiar with the whole North Korea thing that I've always thought that myself is

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_04]: they seem very much like a country that's ran like a cult.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it is. It definitely is.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I haven't done as much research into that one so I can't give the specific details that I would like to give.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That I excuse me that I would give if I had done more research into it and had like all the facts and figures in front of me which I don't

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: but I'm just sort of speaking off the cuff right now.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you'd like more information about what classifies the cult or not to anybody who's listening to this right now,

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd recommend going to freedomofminded.com which is Dr. Stephen Hassan's website in which he will give a lot more examples of you know what

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: behavior control information control thought control and emotion control are

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: what examples they are.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the degree to whether or not something is a cult or not is the degree to which these things

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to which we practice these things on ourselves and the degree of control that these things have over our lives because I think that

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: everybody to some degree practices thought control and emotion control on themselves like you know even if you're say at the gym

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and you really want to push yourself to achieve you know a higher personal record in I guess how much you can lift.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_02]: You can tell yourself I don't feel pain right now.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't feel pain right now.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't feel pain right now as you you know try to get to that personal record even if your arms are sore and then you can do that

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and that is still practicing you know a thought control on yourself but does that mean that lifting with each is a cult.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't say so.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So it is to the degree to which you know these things are able to actually take control of your life and just because you know these

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: things are present doesn't necessarily make something a cult.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah and anyone listening I'll have the link to that in the show notes if you want to research a little bit more.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah it's very interesting but so the show that I host with my friend Sadie Carpenter she is a cult expert she's a cult survivor.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_02]: She we talk a lot about the American Christian fundamentalist movement and in particular the independent fundamental Baptist movement which is sort of a they're not a

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_02]: throughout history of at least the 20th century of this country they've been very influential.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I actually went to school sorry with someone years back I've been out of school for 20 plus years now but she was Southern Baptist and I remember she always came in

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_04]: and she always had to wear really long skirts she wasn't allowed to wear anything but skirts to school it wasn't like Amish they didn't have to wear bots or anything like that

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_04]: but she always had to make sure she learned and dressed to school.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I mean that's part of it too is that in a lot of the and the independent fundamental Baptist movement is very similar in function in a lot of ways to the Southern Baptist convention

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02]: in that a lot of the pastors who are pastors of these independent Baptist churches will have some of them at one point will have been Southern Baptist who decided to split with their denomination for one reason or another

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and take their church independent rather than rely on the Southern Baptist denomination for support because either they you know it's funny because these are the people who say that they hate

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: the Catholic Church and they will cancel culture and they will constantly be canceling each other over very minor theological differences

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and just very like in the reeds sort of religious differences

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_02]: but for one reason or another they will take their church out of the Southern Baptist convention and they will or you know the American Baptist convention

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: or they will just found a new church and say you're an independent Baptist church

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_04]: and

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I actually know someone I'm looking right now I'm friends with him on Facebook I've been friends with him long before this he became a pastor

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_04]: but he also I was trying to see what it says and Midwestern Baptist theology or theological seminary and he ended up making his own church

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and it is based on the whole Southern around about Southern Baptist very Baptist like and a lot of the things I see him posting a lot

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_04]: me and the guys that used to be all friends with him we are like he's got very like a God complex about him so he always has

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_04]: we've known him before this and like he's always been someone that's very egocentric like he's always about himself he wants to be the center of attention

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not surprised that he is now leading a church I keep telling everyone look like kind of joking but so my series like I feel like he's making it cold

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and he might be said will you send me his churches I won't say the name of the church on the we won't say the name of the church on the pop will you send me the the website over email

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I'll I'll check it out and I'll tell you what I think of it because you know we say D and I have been doing our show for about three years

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: she was raised in and around this church called the first Baptist Church of Hammond Indiana and that was pastored for

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to say about 50 years by a guy named Jack Hiles and Jack Hiles essentially was one of the people who made Christian fundamentalism into what it is today

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and was very controlling of members and there were you know numerous sex scandals around either him or his son David or his son in law Jack Scop who ended up going to prison for the sexual abuse of a 16 year old girl

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: back in I want to say 2012 2013 and one of the big aspects of a lot of these Christian fundamentalist denominations is the way that they treat sex and the way that they treat women especially is very hard

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and the other thing that's very valuable is that you know they they have this sort of purity culture that your value you are only valuable as your sexual purity but at the same time they tell men that

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: or they tell women that basically men are uncontrollable animals when it comes to sex and that if you know if you even show a little bit of skin then whatever it is that man does to you is your fault

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and so this creates a culture of victim blaming and you know at your eye could be talking about this and we could think about this and think that this is ridiculous but this is a way of life for a lot of people

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's really horrible and as a result a lot of sexual abuse happens in a lot of sexual abuse gets covered up

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and if somebody ever abuses you as people are want to do if they're the person who wants to be in charge of a lot of people and who wants to have power over a lot of people they tend to also be the kind of person who would commit sexual abuses of another person

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: then that creates a framework for them to be able to blame the person who that they're abusing you know for their own abuse and then create a culture of shame in which they won't come forward in which there won't be accountability against abusers

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I interviewed someone last year and it's very similar to obviously they were in a different religion but it was the same thing like there was a lot of different topics that I've heard that similar things too like when it comes to the men and then with the women

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_04]: it seems to be that women are not considered equal in a lot of these things they're basically almost objects and if something happens if some man does something you've brought it on yourself so you need to be the one asking God for forgiveness because you are the one that sin

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_04]: the man is the one that molested you but you asked for it without realizing you asked for so you're the sinner to me that's just ridiculous but that's how these people are brainwashed into believing

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah and it's even beyond going brainwashed because if you're brought up in that then they don't even need to brainwash you because you don't need to because there's the original thought that's separate from that isn't something that you even need to replace

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: but it is something that you know as somebody who has not grown up with that belief as we've you know as our show's been going for like three years we get a lot of messages from listeners who are raised very similarly to how Sadie was raised

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and the messages that they all get there are that we get from them are all things like I had to learn that I was a person that I was like and and as crazy as that is for people like us to think about like

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: you don't know that you're a person what are you are you don't like

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_02]: they literally don't have the concept that they are a full human being that is deserving to be treated just the same as a man or just the same as anybody else and it's

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: it's really you know it's powerful to see people because we get listener stories all the time telling us

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I like this is my story of how I learned that I was a full person we get emails like that in our inbox or in our Instagram DMs all the time

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know and I read those messages and it really does keep me grounded and it really does sort of like

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it really alters the way that you think about things or the way that you think about the world because that's something that I'm sure you and I absolutely take for granted

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah not being involved in it and looking from an outside I cannot relate to someone and I don't try and judge anyone for that matter because

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_04]: they were born into it they have no other knowledge from outside of what they know just by what they've been brought up in so for them to not understand it

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_04]: I understand that portion of it but when you find other people that have been outsiders and they get brought into these cults

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_04]: you would think at some point red flags should come up but for some reason a lot of people that join these things

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_04]: the red flags they might notice them but for some reason it doesn't bother them like I don't know

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess I just can't wrap my head around how some people can get so deep into things like this

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: okay um so you're a father you have kids yes and I'm sure that when you had your first child

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_02]: you were thinking I want to make sure that I do everything right I want to make sure that you know that my

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_02]: it grows up to be a good person and grows up to be a kind and caring human and who will have a happy life

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and will have all of the things that you know that we view as as good things to want in the world

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah what these fundamentalist groups will do is they will they will say you want to have a good happy family

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: here's a recipe here if you follow our laybook exactly to the letter of it then you will have a perfect family

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: or you will have a perfect marriage or you will have a perfect life and it's hard to make decisions

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: about where do you want to live or what school do you want to go to or what books should I allow my kids to read

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: or you know what movies are appropriate for us to watch as a family together do I think this is appropriate

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: do I think this is not appropriate and especially if you're a new parent maybe you put a lot more anxiety into those decisions

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_02]: than if you have a couple kids then maybe you're just like whatever but like on the third or fourth one you're just like

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: you know what like I dropped him on his head he's fine but um I mean you know how it is yeah I don't have kids

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_02]: but you know I have enough friends that do that that's kind of the thing that I've got but like the anxiety that you get over

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: whether or not your family will be a happy family is real and what especially Christian fundamentalism will do

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: is they will say this is a recipe to give you a perfect family like a perfect leave it to beaver 1950s

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: everything is good everything is dandy type family life a very nostalgic very like idyllic family life and that's what they'll promise you

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I think one perfect example of this is you're familiar with the Duggers right

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah I know who they are

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: um for those that aren't familiar there is a 19 kids in counting was the TV show or 18 kids in counting or 17 15

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: however many kids they had at the time they have a lot of them

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_02]: the Dugger family were members of a group called the Institute for basic life principles which was founded by Bill Gothard

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Bill Gothard created essentially a cult and a homeschooling curriculum and he went around and sold it to families as this is the perfect way to have children

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_02]: this is the perfect way to raise your family you have your family you this is the homeschooling curriculum that you use to teach your children

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_02]: these are the concepts from the Bible that have basically been distilled down into 12 principles that are infallible and if you live your life based on these 12 principles that encompass every commandment in the Bible

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: then you will live a perfect happy good life

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's the sort of pitch that he had to families and it was wildly successful in that lots and lots and lots of people joined his cult and joined his homeschooling cult

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: in order because they wanted to raise their children up properly but his wisdom booklets which were the sort of homeschooling curriculum they were complete horseshit

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry can I swear on the potter kind of thought

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah you're fine I don't have any regular funds

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_02]: okay yeah I mean I on on our show I like to I bleep swears for the stream of one and then for the patron I just kind of let him go

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_02]: um sorry I didn't ask that beforehand but you know they would have stuff in them like

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02]: the vulture is a better bird than the eagle because the vulture is pragmatic and the eagle is more you know cares more about his very own be nonsense like that

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_02]: but it would be like an object lesson in order to teach you a principle and then when you think about that principle

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and you base your life off of that principle that will turn you into a good person

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: but it was just complete and utter nonsense

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_02]: but the way that they teach this to you and the way that they get people to buy into this is by saying if you do this then you will have a perfect family you will have a perfect life

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and being a person is hard thinking about things as hard making decisions is hard

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and if you never want to have to make a decision for your life again and you're just tired

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_02]: then maybe just putting up with the pain and suffering of having to live this way and just kind of white knuckling it and going through the horrible things that you have to go through if you want to be an IBLP member and have 20 children

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_02]: which I wouldn't wish on anybody

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_02]: that's really a huge part of the appeal of that I guess for some people that's easier than having to actually make decisions about their life

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I just don't understand

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm missing off topic but how do you want or have 20 kids

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_04]: like I understand it's like part of the religion and everything but to me it's just it's insane I have four I don't know how I'm the inch

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean yeah four I wouldn't do four I wouldn't have four

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: not me no then so there's a Bible verse I'll see if I can remember it but there is a Bible verse that says something like

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: children are arrows and happy is the man who hath his quiver full of them or something like that

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's like one verse somewhere in the Bible and Bill Gothard

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_02]: plucked that one verse completely out of the concept or out of the context of whatever it is that verse was already was talking about and says

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_02]: here is a verse that says you should have as many children as possible

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and so this is where things get really weird and really creepy is that they will if you are a female member of this cult

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: they he advises you to track your period on a big calendar in the kitchen so that your husband can know when you are ovulating

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_02]: so that you can have sex at the time when it is most likely that you will get pregnant

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and the idea is that you should leave the number of children you have up to God

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and if you try to do anything that prevents children from happening like using any kind of contraception any kind of birth control

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_02]: abortion obviously for these people is completely out of the question because that's the religious beliefs that they have

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_02]: anything like that any sort of contraception any like condoms any birth control or anything is not trusting God enough

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_02]: even if your doctor says to you if you have more children you could possibly die you are supposed to leave that up to God

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't remember a lot about the Duggards I know like one of the sons got in trouble recently

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Josh he was a pedophile that's why he got in trouble

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I know there is something else and I think it's out in Utah and I don't want to

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh is this the FLDS?

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Orange Fs

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what they are called but I know some of them Mormons they had multiple wives or whatever I think it was

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_04]: but there was something out there as well there is like a group of them that had the multiple wives

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_04]: it's very cold like to I watched something like a year or so ago about this

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Was it Keepsweep Prano Bay?

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I think so maybe

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah that was about Warren Jeffs and the FLDS that guy is a real bastard

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Pedophile all that stuff marrying what I think he was marrying like 14 year old girls

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Truly a vile human and he was just getting married to

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_02]: He had so many like child brides

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_04]: If I don't

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I remember right they are still out there aren't they? I don't know about him but I think the actual group of people

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_04]: They are still practicing that out there right now

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, oh yeah I mean that's sort of the thing with a lot of these groups is that you can't really like

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean you can tell people you can't get married to children

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_02]: but you can't monitor if like they are just out there in the country

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and they are out there on a compound you can't like

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_02]: be monitoring them and telling them what they can and can't do 24-7

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It's very weird

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's also a loophole too isn't it because it's a religion

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_04]: They have a protection because of being a religion

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Well they are not protected from prosecution for doing crimes but I think they are

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: You know they are

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I am really not sure about the details about that

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But you can't prosecute somebody from their religious beliefs unless they are actually religious beliefs are a crime

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Or are they are actually doing crimes because that's like if you remember Waco and the Branch Davidians

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_02]: David Koresh

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't get him in trouble for having all of the child brides which was extremely sus they should have come after him for that

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_02]: What they came after him for was firearms laws breaking firearms laws and modifying

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe he was modifying guns to be fully automatic which he couldn't do

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And the ATF came in and that's when you know everything went sideways with David Koresh

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Because they received reports of firearms laws being violated

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I was actually watching something recently about that as well and

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I forget what it was

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know this is the tinfoil hat side of me

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I honestly don't know what really went on there

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if ATF set it on fire they did it themselves or whatever

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I've always leaned it seemed more like it was the government that started the fires and ended up killing the people

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_04]: That's just my own thought process

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_04]: But the whole cold vibe itself was screwed up in general

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_04]: But again I think all these cold things are screwed up

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_02]: My personal opinion and this is

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to say this is based on facts or

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to say this isn't based on facts

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_02]: This is based off of a few different accounts of it that I've seen

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: My personal opinion is that I think that David Koresh

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Land on that like as soon as the first standoff happened

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that he knew that he wasn't coming out alive

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And that he wanted to sort of go out the way that he was going to go out

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_02]: My belief is I think that he either set the fire or instructed somebody else to

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_04]: It is in common theme for the cold leaders to once they feel like they're losing their power

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_04]: That's when they go for the

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I was gonna say Jim Jones

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Well yeah Jim Jones

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_04]: That's when

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_04]: If they can't have the people that no one can have the people so let me make them all die with him

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Again that's a cold vibe thing again like if

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_04]: The leaders going down everyone else has to go down with them

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean that's very true

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You know they, I'm trying to think of another example of that

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_04]: The

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Applegate can't think what they were called the ones off California for the hillbop comet or something

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember, I haven't studied that one

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_02]: You know sometimes we do a deep dive into a lot of these we've done deep dives into David Koresh in the branch of videos

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And we've done a deep dive into Jonestown and we've done a deep dive into the FLDS as well

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And we have many many many episodes about the Duggers on our show

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's such an interesting topic and it's

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting because there is just so much in common with all of these different groups

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that it's almost like we've heard this story before like it almost always unfolds the same way or doesn't always unfold the same way

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But in a lot of times it unfolds the same way

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And it is really sad because you know in every instance that this happens it's always like

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_02]: The women and the children who are the ones who suffer the most

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Based up because you know they're the ones who lose the most freedom and they're also the ones who are made to do so much of the actual labor of making the

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_02]: System function and then there are also people whose lives are sacrificed as well

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And what one of the things that my co-host Sadie told me is that she told me that she always felt like when she was growing up

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_02]: That a woman's value was about the value of like the same value as like a Toyota Corolla

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_02]: In that you are almost an appliance in that you are a baby factory who also cooks and cleans

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that's that's really the the I think a common factor in all of these groups

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to name drop a certain religion but it's popular amongst the Hollywood elite

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I've watched a lot of that Leah remedy show

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, absolutely

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like this literally is very cultish

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh it is for sure I'm I'm I'm all I'm with you 100% of the way I haven't done the research into that one as much as I would like to

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_02]: In that Justin that we haven't done a deep dive episode into it and I'm sort of saving doing the research into it for what we do do a deep dive into that one

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_02]: But from what I've seen I definitely agree with you on that aspect

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Just be aware that if you start to dive into that that's why I'm not going to say anything

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_04]: They have a tendency to come after people when it comes to spreading quote unquote propaganda

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah from what I've from what I've heard so that's why I'm I kind of steer clear of that one

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't feel like being canceled by a different form of cancel culture

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not I'm I don't know I'm not necessarily afraid of that I don't know I'm Jewish I get a hate mail in my DMs on a regular basis

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Or I did when I was on Twitter. I'm not on Twitter anymore just because

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It kind of got unusable, but that's entirely different

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Different aspect, but if we want to talk holds of personality then

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe there's one there as well

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_02]: No

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_02]: How would you like to hear a fun sort of like creepypasta-esque story?

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_02]: To move away from all like the doom and gloom and abuse and that sort of thing that we've been talking about for the last I guess

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Almost an hour

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So we just recently did a episode

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Called the well to hell

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Where we did a deep dive into

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_02]: This sort of like this I want to say urban legend this myth that

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Went around in conservative evangelical circles

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02]: In 1989 Trinity Broadcast Network, which if you don't know is a major

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Christian evangelical TV station was very big in like the 80s and the 90s

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Trinity Broadcast Network broadcast a story in 1989 and I'm going to read this story to you as the text from the

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_02]: From their broadcast. So the story that they told was that

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_02]: In Russia and then I guess this is some background the background

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_02]: For this is that during the Cold War the Americans and the Russians were

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_02]: In competition with each other for various, you know scientific discoveries as we know there was the space race

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_02]: There was the you know they they were exploring the depths of the ocean to see who submarines could go deeper

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Another project that they were working on was they were just drilling down into the crust of the earth just to kind of see what was down there

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is a real project that really existed the Americans were doing if the Russians were doing it the Germans did it as well I think

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But an urban legend sort of popped up

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_02]: That says that the Russians and

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_02]: The Russians basically drilled a hole about 14.4 kilometers deep into the crust of the earth

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And they sit there saying that they heard human screams in that hole in the bottom of that hole

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_02]: screams

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Allegedly of condemned the souls

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02]: In a cavity where their drill broke through into a cavity which they

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Are saying

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Is hell and that hell is a real physical place that exists in the center of the earth and that the Russians

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Drilled a hole down into it and punched through into hell and they lowered a microphone down 14.4 kilometers into the crust of the earth

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Into this hole and recorded the sounds of the screams of people who were being tortured in hell

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So this was a claim that was broadcast on

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Trinity broadcast network and this sort of became like a

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Repie Pasta ask like a chain letter ask claim that was circling around evangelical

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Culture in the 1990s and the 2000s so

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Sadie and I because this is a claim that she was raised believing like this was a story that she would be told in church as

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Proof that hell is real and if you don't get saved by Jesus then you're gonna go there

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And that this is a big story that the scientists are covering up that they don't

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Want the people to know and they're trying to keep it from getting out there because they are afraid that if you believe in

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Hell then you're not going to believe what they want you to believe in which is evolution

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a whole

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Thing I guess but according to this story the geologists were completely dumbfounded and they were

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_02]: unable to

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Sort of tell what was actually happening

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And they agree that there was only one explanation and that it was that the center of the earth is hollow and hell is inside

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And that this is a story that is being covered up by the elites of the world to keep the people from converting to Christianity

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is a story that sort of circulated around evangelical culture or Sadie was raised believing that the story was true

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And we decided to do some research into it and we found some very interesting things

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Regarding this did

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_04]: You happen to come across the recording

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So we did and I can actually send that to you if you're interested

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Definitely interesting here in it. So

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I I don't know if you do music do you do like audio engineering and stuff like that aside from the podcast

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I used to be a

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Vocalist for a metal band. So that's that's why I do podcast now

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I had all these stuff for recording purposes and not doing band life some figured start a podcast

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, dude band life is too much band life's hard

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's very it's frustrated. That's what my other podcast is we talked to other musicians about the struggles of being in a band

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's not always the best. It's fun, but like

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's very much I'll send you the recording if you're interested in it you can

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You can you can spice that recording in and we go Sadie and I go into a lot more greater detail on it on this story but

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I figured

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_02]: From listening to the recording it sounds like it's just a bunch of audio that's been layered over each other

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Like if you listen to it you're a musician and you've worked in digital audio workstations before and you would or I would probably be able to recreate that sound very easily

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_02]: with very little in the way of tools or downloads or samples that we had to to download

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Or to make I mean we could make it for you know just a microphone probably

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_02]: We were able to kind of

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Debunk it in a certain way because we found

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_02]: The origin of the story was actually from a

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_02]: From a magazine in Finland

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_02]: In which it was basically just like a weird stories and creepy

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Exposition stories

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But they got this story from a messianic Christian group in California

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So it and if there was no and it was very clear that it was just made up by this group

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm. So this is a big story that you know Sadie and other evangelical Christians who I've talked to were

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Terrified because they heard this story. They you know, they grew up with the belief that

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_02]: In church they were being played the sounds of

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Actual people being tortured for all eternity

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_02]: When in reality it was a story that was made up by some church group in California

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And then translated into like finisher nor region and then sent back to TVN

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And then broadcast without ever actually fact-checking whether or not it was true

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that's

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Sort of like how

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Evangelical culture very much worked and we see a lot of that with like

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_02]: The way that QAnon is now in that it's become just like somebody makes a post on Facebook

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And then suddenly that post on Facebook that somebody makes with a Photoshopped picture

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Become somebody saying like oh Beyonce is the anti-Christ and she and Obama conspired to

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know do whatever it is that they do to bring Satan back and you know the

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever it is Q is gonna do is gonna be the finger that's gonna fight Satan

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But isn't it isn't very much of that sort of sense of the world I

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Understand I'm not a political person left or right. I think

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Our political scheme is

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Screwed up in general. It doesn't matter but

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't understand it because that's another cult vibe to me is this whole Q movement

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's absolutely a cult and no one

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I have a couple people that send me stuff all the time about it and I just I don't

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I was like of the real savior who's really gonna like the person that they claim as the savior is

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_04]: That person and then we deep and if you dive into it more and I said I think this is someone

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_04]: That's more or less just try to discredit it because they said JFK Jr. behind it all he's the real Q is like

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_02]: The dude died back in like the 90s. Yeah, but he's not actually dead, you know, it's a conspiracy like

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'll tell you something interesting

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Every single one of these like

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_02]: conspiracy theories can be traced back to

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_02]: One single conspiracy theory

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Called the protocols of the elders of Zion. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's a very

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Brethalink conspiracy theory

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_02]: It was the conspiracy theory that

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Inspired Hitler to do the Holocaust it was the consp- so the idea of this conspiracy theory

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that essentially Jews are the people that run the world

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_02]: This is and it's based on a document that was is known to be fabricated by

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Russian sources in the early 20th century because

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_02]: For one they were afraid of Bolshevism of the Bolshevik movement and they were

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Afraid that

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_02]: The

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_02]: The socialist movement was going to take over the country and was

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Sparking civil unrest so in order to

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Tar the Bolshevik movement what they essentially did was they

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Created a fake conspiracy theory to say that the Bolshevik movement was Jewish so that people would hate it because this was Russia in the early

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_02]: 1900s and everyone hated the Jews so they could say

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: The Bolshevik movement is Jewish don't join it

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But they if you look up the protocols of the elders of Zion it is a fraudulent document

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_02]: That was made to

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Allege a grand global conspiracy of the Jews to

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Essentially install the New World Order and one world government which is then in and of itself based on a

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Very particular like biblical literalist American either Baptist or

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Pentecostal or seventh-day Adventist reading of the book of Revelation and the way that the

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: That the end of days is going to go about

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_02]: They sort of ported a lot of those ideas over into this conspiracy theory to say that the Jews were trying to take over the world

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: well that conspiracy theory made its way to America and

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_02]: was then

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Oblushed on mass by Henry Ford

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_02]: In in pamphlets and he translated it into German where it was found by Hitler and Hitler used this conspiracy theory as

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of the basis for

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: You know all of the claims and all of the hatred that he would try to sell against the Jewish people because he believed it to be true when in fact

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It was fully a

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_02]: fabrication now this idea of a

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Satanic group trying to take over the world then became the satanic panic in the

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_02]: 1960s 1970s 1980s and you had people like

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Mike Warnke who wrote a book called the Satan cell or or conspiracy theorists like John Todd

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Who claimed to be a grand druid priest of the Illuminati?

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_02]: That's where sort of the Illuminati came to provenance in conspiracy theory type

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Circles I got to make a mention of something. Oh, yeah go for it. I get emails

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_04]: from the Illuminati

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And they want me to join Illuminati and I have to pay them money to join them the Illuminati

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_04]: They all see and I everything I laugh every time I get one

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_04]: But you know I was actually sending you the emails and they claim this from the Illuminati

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Know I've actually with her it's a page and everything you can sign up

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_04]: They send you a plaque and all sorts of stuff if you're part of the Illuminati

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Should get one send me send me a link to that. I'll send it to Sadie. She and I will we like

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: She and I have done like deep research into all of this stuff and it's just like

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: so much of this stuff is both is

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Is is people who are bad faith actors and then just also people who are

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: There's people who are legitimately hateful and then they're just people who are spreading this stuff

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: We're just like low rent scammers and grifters who are just like yeah

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I can tell some story to a bunch of people and they'll give me money and that's how this stuff stays

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Circulating is that there's somebody who is like wait these people will believe anything

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll tell them that I was a

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Illuminati member and that now I'm reformed in a Christian then so then I can go around to churches and take up a

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Love offering or whatever and they'll I'll just go from church to church to church and get money at these independent

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Or these fundamentalist Christian congregations spreading whatever lies and BS that I want to spread

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can make my living that way and there have been plenty of people that did that one guy in particular

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Was this guy named Alberto Rivera who claimed to be an ex

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Jesuit priest who was a member of

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: The I get was he involved in the illiterate

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't ever if he said he was involved in the Illuminati

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But he said it was an ex-Jesuit priest and that the Jesuits were actually the people who were

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Involved with the upcoming new world order takeover back in like the 70s or the 80s or something like that

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Which of course never ended up happening and it's the same sort of thing with

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_02]: The satanic panic kind of died out and then it sort of popped back up as the QAnon movement

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's literally just the exact same thing and instead of it being JFK is still alive and I saw him on his yacht in 1967

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: it's JFK Jr. Is still alive and he's the one who's going to come back and

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Declare, you know everything saved I guess and it's all just

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Complete and utter nonsense and it's either spread by people who are grifters or people who are actually hateful

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Or you know just anyone who's dumb enough to believe it

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_04]: so

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_04]: I just went into my email the website is

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Illuminati official.org

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_04]: slash verified

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Illuminati official.org

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: slash

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: It's I mean it has official in the name. So it's gotta be yeah

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_04]: That's gotta be says to verify the authenticity

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_04]: authenticity of an account page or profile claiming to represent his visit

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Illuminati official.org slash verified

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, cool. So they as they're like an Illuminati version of like the verified check mark

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the very bottom says a word of caution the name of the Illuminati is often misused many profit seekers create accounts and

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_04]: AALY says under the names of our ranking members in an attempt to mislead those who follow

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_04]: The light to verify authenticity

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm an account page or profile claiming to represent as visit Illuminati official.org slash verified

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I'm going to click this tab here where it says join the Illuminati

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and once my email address my full name

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I if I give them to that do that mean that I have to take the mark of the beast and

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh when the rapture comes I can't go to heaven. I don't know

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I just watched um because I didn't grow up in christian culture. I just watched this movie called a thief in the night

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Have you seen it?

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_05]: No, I have not

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like it's it's like a a rapture b movie from the 1970s

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's it's it's like an end times horror movie that was

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Made or in like 1973 or something and now i'm thinking about the rapture it says

[01:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: uh

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_02]: The Illuminati is an elite organization of world leaders business

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: authorities investors

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: artists and other

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: influential members of this planet to apply for membership

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Complete the form on this page and all it wants is my email address and my name. So I I don't feel like that's like, uh

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, this all goes to my whole band account. That's the only time I ever see it

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So we must have signed up to it years ago because we wanted to become famous

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_02]: That's great. I mean, you know Illuminati records like if you're gonna have a record company Illuminati records

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess jz has his Illuminati thing that he like

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone thinks that him and Beyonce and everybody else are uh, they do little signs and little clues and everything else

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_04]: there's all sorts of

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_04]: conspiracy theories when you go into that

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_04]: route with things but

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I try not to get too in depth with some of stuff like that. I um

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I look from other type of stuff more government involvement and control and other things than

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Like the qa non and stuff like I don't really

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I try to stay away from all that crap dude. I mean it is it is a bunch of nonsense

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It's um, I mean if if you're gonna do conspiracy theories, man

[01:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: My favorite conspiracy theories are just the ones that are so

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to say nonsensical but just like

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So like um

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: non

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_02]: What is the non impactful?

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Like um, I'm trying to think of what's a good one the

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Like somebody sent me one to actually my girlfriend sent me this one today. She sent me

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I might have seen it on reddit or something. There was a conspiracy theory that like

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Taylor Swift and and Travis Kelsey's relationship is fake because Travis Kelsey is gay or something like that and he's trying to

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And and the NFL is trying to protect like an image like I'm just like this is dumb

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But this is funny that somebody would actually tweet about this on the internet

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Um

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Because now I guess all the Swifties love football because she's dating Travis Kelsey

[01:08:56] [SPEAKER_04]: It'll only it'll only be dating for a little bit longer than she'll release a new album and have a big hit song based off of him

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it'll be great. I'm sure it'll yeah. I'm sure it'll be a bop. She's got great songs

[01:09:08] [SPEAKER_04]: My daughter wins cedar a couple months ago. I'm not a swifty at all. I'm a death metal fan

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah, like like what kind of death metal the black deli murders probably my favorite band their melodic death metal

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay, so you don't like slammer or anything. No, it's just like

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_04]: The slam music I there's some bands I've heard or whatever, but I'm not

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Too big into the slam deathcore type stuff. I like more fast riff and melodic stuff

[01:09:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Slam is funny to me because they're just like here's part of this one like

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Suffocation song what if we made an entire genre of music that was just this one breakdown of this one song

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Did it and it was fun for about five minutes

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah, I uh

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't pay much attention to some of this stuff. I guess I'm too old for that. I'm almost 40. I'll be 40 in like

[01:09:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Two months

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I just turned 30 man. Like it's it's we're still young

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: We're we're uh, we're in the problem of our lives, man. We're in the problem of our youth

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I and I grew up with the

[01:10:11] [SPEAKER_04]: more

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_04]: metal core and

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Stuff like that so stuff from like the early 2000s through the mid 2000s. That's always been my go-to stuff like

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_04]: on earth one of my favorite bands and

[01:10:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Going completely off topic. This is more of the my other podcast discussions, but

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_04]: That's just the type of stuff that we're into and like in the other podcasts. We interview musicians and

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_04]: The struggles that they've had and stuff like that. So if you've got a background in music

[01:10:40] [SPEAKER_04]: You can always hop over on that one too

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what's that one called?

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Dark side of the scene dark side of the scene. I like it man. Um

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_02]: No, that's

[01:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That's that's

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I swear the Swifties are gonna um, I would love it if Taylor Swift decided to release a death metal album. Um

[01:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and then the

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of people this is another conspiracy that uh

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I like I say conspiracy, but it's more or less people

[01:11:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I see the memes and everything else like the name three songs because all these girls anymore wearing like

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_04]: metallic a shirt slayer shirts or like

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Old metal band shirts or whatever and

[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_04]: These guys are supposed to be like running up to these girls named three songs named three albums like shit. I couldn't even do that

[01:11:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I love those bands but like off the top of my head

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I couldn't just name three songs right off the bat just because I'm wearing a band shirt

[01:11:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I used to wear band shirts all the time and someone come up to me like name three songs would be like, uh

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I know the song's music. I can't think of the names. I can sing three songs. They go

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: That's one of them and then the other one is

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_04]: No, then you get uh

[01:11:59] [SPEAKER_04]: not to insult any of my metal fans out there, but uh

[01:12:04] [SPEAKER_04]: I've always thought it was funny too when everyone has their war vest

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_04]: like the

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Dittem shirts or the denim jacket with the cut off sleeves and the

[01:12:11] [SPEAKER_04]: band patches all over

[01:12:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Like that's their battle vest and now I've seen supposedly like girls wearing that stuff too and everyone's getting so mad about it

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So why are you getting mad about it that?

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_02]: girls wanted that like

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Girls like the thing that you're into now you have you have no excuse to not talk to them anymore, buddy

[01:12:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Besides proper hygiene and being afraid of them

[01:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, now you can do the oh no girls like the music of it. No they do

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: They just don't like you but no

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Gotta come out of the basement sometime there fellow. Yeah, uh, I say that as I'm in my basement

[01:12:50] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think we could I think we can probably wrap this one up. It's kind of going off the rails now

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, dude. Thanks for having me. Um

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I definitely appreciate it. I uh definitely enjoyed it. You want to go ahead and uh

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Let everyone know where they can find your podcast at

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so the leaving eden podcast you can find us wherever you get podcasts

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, you can follow us on social media on uh facebook and on instagram

[01:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess we're on threads now. Um because twitter is kind of dying

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And i'm trying to see if threads is still going to be a thing in like a year

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But we're on there and you can follow us. Uh our handle there is leaving eden podcast

[01:13:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Um and you can follow me on socials if you want

[01:13:38] [SPEAKER_02]: my handle on facebook and instagram and

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: threads is at gavrielhacoachen

[01:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, um, thanks for having me on man. I really appreciate it. This has been a lot of fun

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh to talk about this. I mean

[01:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I do feel like I mean I do live in philadelphia and I do feel like you know in that episode of it's always

[01:14:02] [SPEAKER_02]: sunny when charlotte is like

[01:14:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Looking for pepe silvia and he has the

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: The mail on the board and the string going back and forth. I do feel like that whenever I talk about this stuff because it's all

[01:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all twined and it's all crazy

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[01:14:19] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a show that I haven't watched in a long time and I wish I could but

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_04]: the

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_04]: kids

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Kids have now taken over by television. That's the real

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_04]: conspiracy of adult life is once you have children

[01:14:32] [SPEAKER_04]: You no longer get the ability to just watch whatever the hell you want to watch because it is now

[01:14:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Taken over by the disney channel or coca-mellon or whatever the hell it is. They're watching

[01:14:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah

[01:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. I'm a fan of lately. I've gotten into real house wars in salt lake city. That's a great show. Highly recommend it

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I uh

[01:14:53] [SPEAKER_04]: The only thing I end up watching is football

[01:14:56] [SPEAKER_04]: NBA starting to get up. So I'll watch that. What's your team?

[01:15:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm a hometown fellow. So I like the cold. So I like my pacers. There's the only

[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I can say I watch everything though. That's what's funny like tonight before we got on here. I was watching those

[01:15:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Tip-off nights. So it's the Lakers versus the nuggets. Oh, yeah, I don't I just the Lakers

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I just always won't yeah

[01:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm from portland, Oregon. So my team is the trailblazers. Yeah. Uh, yeah

[01:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[01:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad that I have something to talk about this year other than is Damien Lillard gonna get traded. So

[01:15:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's been the rumor for the last plot two or three years

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Five 10 15 20 as long as these play they they're just insatiable

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just they want to make content

[01:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: They want to make content so there's people being like

[01:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Who is going to ask for a trade next? I guess it's joe lmbd is going to ask for a trade next now that

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yana signed his big extension, but I digress. Thanks for having me on man. I really appreciate it. Yep, not a problem. I appreciate it

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Remember the truth lies in the stories we share the connections we make stay curious. Stay open-minded

[01:16:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you all for joining us on this journey and until next time

[01:16:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Keep questioning keep seeking and keep exploring the unknown. Good night everyone